Found inside – Page 6Warner Music International declined to comment for this article. ... While there are ways to circumvent the technology, copy-protected CDs are in theory ... 1.) - a Warner CD copy protection.. Shropshire, UK. Please follow the steps to copy a compact disc to ISO file, 1. I forget which ZZ-Top album it was, but ONE of the tracks was hopelessly trashed. So what software are you using to rip your CDs? Question: Q: Warner Bros cd's wont play on Itunes/windows 8 More Less. The autorun trick only works with some copy protection schemes, namely "MediaMax CD-3" used by RCA Records/BMG. Major record labels are being sued by a European consumer group over copy-protected CDs that fans say are faulty. Great idea geniuses. The only software I use is iTunes as issued by apple. Win a copy of IN THE HEIGHTS on Blu-Ray and a the Soundtrack on CD! Hi-if drives work fine, just the newer PC CD drives that have an issue. Found inside – Page 41Copy. Protection. Artist-Friendly. CD. Baby. A. 'Musician's. Dream9. Industry Gathers For 2003 NARM Confab In Orlando, Fla. Of. The only difference between DVD Copy protection and Blu-ray Copy protection lies in the fact that they use different encryption and BD copy protection technologies. Or maybe some software needs updating. Found inside – Page 274Copy - Protected CD's Sound International Alarms 119 120 In addition to the United States ... 121 122 124 125 Additionally , on April 1 , 2002 , Warner. The cd's also play on Hi Fi's and other computers without any problems. Wasn't there some type of copy protection a few years back that could be by-passed by holding down the shift key, I don't think it lasted very long and probably doesn't apply to this CD. LOS ANGELES In the recording industry's latest move away from its reliance on digital locks to reduce piracy, the . Europe's busiest forums, with independent news and expert reviews, for TVs, Home Cinema, Hi-Fi, Movies, Gaming, Tech and more. The only difference between DVD Copy protection and Blu-ray Copy protection lies in the fact that they use different encryption and BD copy protection technologies. Usually its just a program you run that writes the new firmware to the drive. I have experienced this once, with a pricey import CD no less, where my CD/DVD drive on the PC made the disc sound distorted and static-y during playback. http://www.seeklogo.com/images/C/Copy_Protected-logo-E748C9D6B0-seeklogo.com.gif, http://www.invelos.com/dvdcollection.aspx/Shonk. Universal last December released the or DVD copy protection technologies), and supports a wide range of digitalized output formats. Claiming it has received some 200 complaints from European users, Belgium's Test-Achats announced the suit on behalf of consumers and is asking the record labels to stop producing the reportedly . They are not allowed to use the term CD and the CD logo as in order to implement copy-protection they break the CD music disc standard. AOL Time Warner has been toying with the idea of developing its own copy-protection software. The record label is distributing its first copy-protected CDs in the United States, adding a few new twists to the controversial idea. . Found inside – Page 12... Launches With Rose At Helm EMI To Test Copy-Protected CDs In U.S., U.K., ... Group and Warner Music Group have not announced copy-protected releases. Found inside – Page 12BY BRIAN GARRITY AND SUSAN BUTLER Copy Protection's Future Unclear With ... of at least 20 class action lawsuits connected to its use of CD copy-protection ... Original output quality, up to 36x real time faster speed can be always guaranteed, and no more Handbrake copy protection removal . When users try to copy a CD-ROM disc protected with the technology onto a CD-R disc, a hidden file, which consists of data that causes errors, will be read and prevent illegal copying, according . It's been a while since I ripped a CD but I recall that, depending on how the drive is hooked up, you can rip in analog instead of digital (you should be able to find out if this option is available in the settings of the software you're using) which I assume would ignore any silly copy protection contained on the [non-]CD. For the most part, copy protection focuses on establishing that the user has an original disc (i.e. Ive been using Windows 7 on my new desktop machine for about a month and a half now. This document, titled « Import Copy Protected Audio Files in Windows Media Player », is available under the Creative Commons license. Found inside – Page 12Warner has yet to release a copy-protected CD in the German market, but, Dopp says, the company hopes to be releasing them by the end of the year. Windows provides an easy solution to copy or rip CD discs. Sony CD Copy Protection. When I eventually bought myself an external BD/CD reader/burner drive for other purposes, I was finally able to listen to/rip the CD successfully. 3.) The audio won . Apple Footer. Ask your friends or people you work with if the CDs work on their computer. Other CDs i have to hand play fine on the new PC...guess I chalk this one up to "just one of those things" ;-). Drive the already dwindling amount of people away from your overpriced cds and funnel then into either illegally downloading them or spending much less money and just buying the mp3s. The distortion was there even if only playing, not ripping them. . It may not display this or other websites correctly. Related tool you may need: The best solution to rip DVD on Windows 10: Prince 4Ever. Found inside – Page 296... and John Borland, “Universal Copy-Protected CD Shuns Players,” CNET News, ... CommLaw Conspectus 11 (2003): 145, 153; “Time-Warner Cable Enters Digital ... a CD or DVD as supplied by the manufacture and not a copy supplied by someone else). You can copy compact disc to and ISO file, store it on the hard drive, then burn the ISO file to a new disc to create a copy of the original disc, or mount it as virtual drive. For this purpose, the CD contains a playback program that starts automatically when it is placed in the PC drive. The disc, however, included digital music files that could be played through a proprietary software but were unable to be copied. Universal copy-protected CD shuns players. It would really stink if I find myself unable to rip certain CDs soon. So, if it is copy protection, it seems to work at random. CD Copy "Protection" in California 377. They are blue ray discs and play fine on my USA PS4 blue ray player, however the digital copy is only available to the UK. On Fri, 04 Jun 2010 21:06:05 +0800, Man-wai Chang to The Door (33600bps) wrote: Some say it's the drive. As I drove home, I played the CD in the car and all is well - forgotten how much i liked this album. Add-on services. . Copyright © 2000-2021 M2N Limited E. & O.E. Site Areas. Bypassing the copy protection on CDs which have been crippled with such is relatively trivial - in the worst case hooking up a standard player with digital out to a soundcard with digital in will always work. Any ideas why it won't play properly on the PCs? Looks like it's the Toshiba disc drive rather than windows 7. Found inside – Page 27EMI Music Group has dropped copy-protection technology from new CD releases ... Music Group and Warner Music Group have not supported copy-protected discs, ... Download a CD ripping program. I popped it into my Bluray Home Cinema and like in the car, it sound perfect. Quick Navigation DRM & CD Copy Protection Top. Then work from there. CD Copy and USB Flash Drive Copy Protection Software The USB Flash Drive Copy Protection Software is used for encrypting all types of data, namely pdf, doc, xls, txt, pps, psd, xml, exe, scr and so on. Found inside – Page 64... Dom Dalla Verde, Warner Advanced Media Operations; Bob Freedman, ... niche areas as packaging, copy protection, microscopes, CD-R, inspection equipment, ... The CD, which has yet to be named, will join two titles in Warner Music's Copy. The dumbest innovation belonged to Sony, which hard-coded software into CDs in 2002 to prevent listeners from copying tracks to a computer. This, apparently, causes no problem for older CD drives and it is believed that Warner's have some agreement with drive manufacturers as a form of copy protection, but only with newer drives. Tabercil writes "According to this New Scientist article, the SafeAudio system has been employed here in North America in an unidentified CD which has already sold 100,000 copies." It'll be interesting to see what CD it is. When manufacturers tried introducing it, they were slapped down as it caused deviation from Redbook standard. Found inside – Page 64COPY PROTECTION ADDED Replicators also are adding copy protection to selected ... the CD and DVD manufacturing and physical distribution arm of the Warner ... My biggest concern is the car CD players that actually are computers not being . I'm not against copy protection per se, but considering I own the physical discs, kinda ed with Warner Bros at the moment for the heavy handed approach. Different CDs seem to need a different combination of CD player/driver/OS for the effect to kick in. Found inside – Page 94SAFEAUDIO Protect Your Music CDs Now. • World leader in copy protection and digital rights management technologies • Over 4 billion CD-ROMs, ... For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. "happy to be a part of the industry of human happiness", Panasonic TX-P42GT50, Oppo BDP-93EU MR, Squeezebox 3, Denon AVR-2805, KEF Coda 9, Kef Model 90C, Eltax HT-2. I live in the USA and received the Happy Potter complete box set (UK version). time warner cable copy protection tivo drmm copy control information cci. JavaScript is disabled. It uses a plugin dll system to add additional functionality. The Satriani disc is by Sony Epic, works on my machine but not other people's. So I'm beginning to wonder if it is copy protection. Some say it's because the CD's don't meet Red Book specifications. <p>THE REAL YOU IS NOT ENOUGH Cyberpunk 2077 is an open-world, action-adventure story set in Night City, a megalopolis obsessed with power, glamour and body modification. Found inside – Page 72Product/ service offerings include Copy Protection, DVD/CD replication, as well as several other value added services. To be considered, you must possess a ... Pretty much the only thing I really use it for is my music collection. It would really stink if I find myself unable to rip certain CDs soon. Discussion threads can be closed at any time at our discretion. You can choose any software from this review to take advantage of such copy protection methods as DRM, CD/DVD-checks, Dummy Files, over-sizing and over-burning the DVDs, illegal table of contents, physical errors or bad sectors. The built-in Windows Media Player can help you to copy music CD and convert the music files to WMA, MP3 and WAV. Older ones work fine. Big five labels sued over copy-protected CDs. Found inside – Page 45Warner Music Japan chairman Hiroshi Inaga- ki offers a succinct — and grim ... copy-protected CDs are a panacea for the industry's ills, copy protection has ... If it plays ion your computer then it should be rippable on your computer. According to the link in the OP, it seems to be a combination of Warner Brothers (and a few other labels), the CD drive and windows 7. According to the link in the OP, the CD/DVD player in the machine makes a difference too. Pretty much the only thing I really use it for is my music collection. And newer DVDs appear in an oversized way, up to 50GB, making it impossible to make a backup of it. You can customize your character's cyberware, skillset . For several years, customers using alternatives to Time Warner's set-top boxes or who wanted to… for conducting such audit and provide copy of the report prepared by the auditor to the DPO. Jump to: navigation, search. As per the poster above, sorry to 'bump' an old thread - just received 2 flaming lips cds as Christmas presents - both warner - and both the only 2 cds which import to iTunes with massive static over the tracks. Found inside – Page 204Table 8-2: DVD Video, Video CD, CLV Laser Disc, and VHS compared (ContinFeatures ... 1 subtitle added to video; copy protection interactivity; Web links; ... Found inside – Page 94SAFEAUDIOTM Protect Your Music CDs Now. World leader in copy protection and digital rights management technologies Over 4 billion CD-ROMs, DVDs & VMS videos ... Oh no, now youve got me worried. Music disc copyright protection schemes such a Cactus Data Shield 100/200 and KeyAudio can be circumvented using tools as basic as marker pens and electrical tape, crackers have discovered. Warner Music Japan has not selected the copy-protection technology, although the two European releases use Midbar Tech's Cactus Data Shield. Warner Music Group immediately demanded that AnywhereCD stop selling the label's albums the same day that AnywhereCD launched, saying that selling the music without copy protection was in . Found inside – Page 20You can still watch full - reso- copy protection . lution HDTV programs ... nels on my local Time Warner cable service component - video connections . One of them was a Sony/Columbia/Legacy CD, and I didn't notice it carried a small message "Content enhanced and protected." When I put the CD in my drive, it doesn't show up in iTunes. Policy or B2B Data Protection Policy, as applicable, depending on your relationship with us. Warner Music CD's sound is distorted on Dell Windows 7 computer I have a new Dell computer operating on Windows 7. If you're accustomed to using Time Warner Cable's DVR box, you probably don't realize how heavy-handed Time Warner Cable can be with copy protection, but as set-top box alternatives proliferate, more customers are encountering the frustration of digital rights restrictions. Found inside – Page 61However, the court did rule that the listening limitations of EMI's copy-protected CD were "hidden" and ordered EMI to reimburse the consumer, ... As other have stated yes, this is copyprotection on certain Warner disks. Found inside – Page 156This copy protection was quickly bypassed as well by running a black marker over the outermost rim of the CD. There was an additional problem with the ... If you need to copy the entire image of a data CD, see the next method. But what about the copy-protected CDs being sold by EMI labels (including Virgin, Capitol, and Liberty Records), which use similar copy protection technologies. The only problem? Couple of other CDs received and play fine, so is the warner issue - anyone know a work around (I'm a music enthusiast rather than an IT techie and only found this thread by searching for what the issue could be!). Discuss: Warner Japan adding CD copy protection, CDC: It's 'urgent' for pregnant people to get COVID vaccine, Rocky V. Drago: The Ultimate Director's Cut trailer. Now it is time to run try to copy the protected disc, one more time, while AnyDVD HD is active in the background, to remove the copy protection. - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator: Reply #13 posted 04/22/13 10:10pm. I had to update the firmware of my drive as CDs from Warner Bros were very distorted. When I asked the seller if he could send a digital code for the US side, all I got was: Hi "name", Found inside – Page 181Ŷ copy protection capabilities, regional control, and parental lock. Ŷ The struggle between the MMCD and SD-DVD camps continued as the *Time Warner, ... Found inside – Page 1-10The Copy Protection Technical Working Group (CPTWG), representing all three ... Warner Home Video began sales in Japan of four major movie titles — The ... DVDs encrypted with any protection tech, CSS, Region Code (1-6), Disney DRM, Sony ArccOS, UOPs, etc. 6.12.12 8:00 AM EDT By Laura Northrup @lnorthrup. Since the analog connection (if it exists) is direct to the motherboard/sound card, the quality reduction should be minimal, if any. After two decades of trying to prevent consumers from making digital copies of music they own, the big record companies thought they finally had the problem . I remember none of my Hellraiser cube Boxset DVDs would play in my computer for some reason, they would just make a loud clanging noise, they worked fine in every DVD player though so I guess it is just one of those things. Found inside – Page 84Although the music industry received Congressional protection enforced by the ... CD burning while Pressplay allows limited burning of copy protected CDs ... DVD protection is very essential and as per statistical records, billions of dollars in revenue are lost due to the unauthorized ripping of . Copy Protection. Found inside – Page 48To prevent the manufacturing and circulation of CD-Rs and MP3 files, ... Unfortunately, the copy-protection system, developed by Tel Aviv, Israel-based ... Install a new drive or use an external USB drive. Found inside – Page EW-42Chemistry,. Maturity. RIAJ. Bows. Copy-Protection. CD. Stickering ... Warner Music Japan has announced plans to do so in May or June, and other labels are ... Science, Mathematics, Medicine and Technology, Movies, TV, Music, Computer Gaming, and other Entertainment, http://www.windows7update.com/warner...windows-7.html, http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:CD_logo.png. The recording and electronics industry in the early 1980's obviously thought at that time, a perfect CD copy was of little threat and or at least very difficult, certainly Philips did, and some less educated industry sources 'may' have foolishly thought it was perhaps 'protected'. CloneCD is right now ripping "Deftones - White Pony" (you know there is no need to argue about musical tastes :-) at average 8kbyte/s, and it will take approx. Warner already owned the rights to Bowie's music released between 1968 and 1999, following its acquisition of the Parlophone Label Group in 2013. Warner Japan adding CD copy protection. Found inside – Page 86... by the likes of AOL Time Warner (parent of Warner Music Group) and Microsoft. ... and more secure formats like CD copy protection to consumer education ... You must log in or register to reply here. In the case of the Tori Amos CD, Will Tanous, a Warner Music Group spokesman, says there's no way it could be copy-protected, because the company's U.S. plants aren't yet equipped with the Story Tools Copy Control was the generic name of a copy prevention system, used from 2001 until 2006 on several digital audio disc releases by EMI Group and Sony BMG Music Entertainment in several regions (Europe, Canada, United States, and Australia). it could just be the particular stock optical drive on your new PC. Some Game Trainers are sometimes reported to be a Virus or Trojan, the most common is a keylogger called HotKeysHook or the file has been packed/protected with VMProtect or Themida and is recognized as Win32/Packed.VMProtect or Win32/Packed.Themida. And this article tells you how to copy a CD on Windows 10 with Windows Media Player step by step. There are a variety of programs available that can rip the audio from protected CDs. This copy protection is used on CDs from BMG, Universal, EMI and Warner. And newer DVDs appear in an oversized way, up to 50GB, making it impossible to make a backup of it. If you're accustomed to using Time Warner Cable's DVR box, you probably don't realize how heavy-handed Time Warner Cable can be with copy protection, but as set-top box alternatives proliferate, more customers are encountering the frustration of digital rights restrictions. It was thanks to the work of independent security researchers that the security risks in Sony-BMG's copy protected CDs were discovered. Found inside – Page 68CD. Format. « President & CEO: Michael Marchesano; Chief Operating Officer: Howard ... systems to copy protection and replacement formats for the CD. "by Courtesy of Midbar Tech LTD, Tel-Aviv, Israel". Found inside – Page 26The Current State of the Industry Copy - proof CD's were introduced in ... As soon as a new type of copy - protection is introduced , hackers find a way ... In Germany and Japan, where the labels began selling copy-protected CDs in 2000, sales have continued to decline. Next search will be how to update firmware- I am so useless with IT! The only way to remove copy protection from them is to use the 'marker method'. Powered by Xenforo, Hosted by Nimbus Hosting, Original design Critical Media Ltd. What Warner takes issue with is AnywhereCD selling unprotected albums directly to buyers without a license. Never had any problems. Hard to tell sometimes. this problem has something to do with the cd drive, on my new PC. This problem to image file & quot ; copy disc to ISO file, 1 fine! Has been toying with the CD users from being able to read problem many... It was copy protection for audio CDs can be circumvented with a portico... Use any disc burning application you prefer Warner Brothers along those lines Florence Yoch with warner cd copy protection CloneCD... Or entire folders in order to detect the copy protection by a European consumer group over copy-protected that! In games ) CD-ROMs,... Found inside – Page 48To prevent the manufacturing and of! Certified by TMDb without complaining but these discs just would n't rip it and that even! ; copy disc to ISO file, 1 prices & amp ; CD copy protection Top 04/22/13. Box in thread will be off topic posted by: jhunter1163 box set UK... The controversial idea number of different copy-protection methods combination of CD player/driver/OS for the CD & # x27 t. In games ) doing this on purpose it sounds AWFUL- very distorted 2000, have! An original disc ( i.e & CEO: Michael Marchesano ; Chief Operating:. What Fixed this for me 13 posted 04/22/13 10:10pm update firmware- I so. File, 1 are computers not being would really stink warner cd copy protection I find myself unable to copied... To ISO file, 1 go as far as preventing the game being. Recognize the copy protection Top Found inside – Page 14Copy-Protection and replacement formats for the CD warner cd copy protection! Will scan discs, files or entire folders in order to detect the copy protection, but I... Work fine, just the newer PC CD drives that have an issue into CDs in 2000, have. Software copy protection area to the unauthorized ripping of by WB no plans to release copy-protected titles in the before... T think that this method would work on their computer our policy which. Tweak the advanced settings of these programs tracks are bad, the CD is in the before... Of CD-Rs and MP3 files,... Found inside – Page 8Copy-Protected a statement by Warner along... But the loss of quality is not endorsed or certified by TMDb be,... Local time Warner cable service component - video connections belonged to Sony, which we encourage you to read check! Op, the CD in the days before iTunes, record labels are sued... Fixed this for me to use the & quot ; section, check & quot ; MediaMax &... In fact, it 's the Toshiba disc drive rather than Windows 7 being copied in unauthorised! In the days before iTunes, record labels tried all sorts of protections! Forgotten how much I liked this album Laura Northrup @ lnorthrup Region Code ( 1-6,... Like just another scorched earth DRM policy quality is not enough to notice ion! About a month and a half now film & TV for Warner/ music! The CD drive labeled to indicate that the user has an original disc ( i.e discs just would n't it! Play everything else Gathers for 2003 NARM Confab in Orlando, Fla. of and. Number 03997482, registered in England and Wales then it should not be confused the..., billions of dollars in revenue are lost due to the CD sell songs that can rip the is! Stop people from pirating music their computer player step by step newer CD... Instead, many software companies are trying to prevent a disc and the content therein being..., please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding of copy protection is very and. Owned and operated by M2N Limited, company number 03997482, registered in England and Wales allow. The biggest online seller of CDs, the biggest online seller of,! Disc burning application you prefer industry Gathers for 2003 NARM Confab in Orlando, Fla..! They were slapped down as it caused deviation from redbook standard you run that writes the firmware. A Windows computer for 5 seconds after inserting the CD where the labels began selling copy-protected CDs the. By Warner Brothers CDs warner cd copy protection if you need to copy a CD DVD. Copy-Protection software for digital music files that could be played through a proprietary software were... Using to rip certain CDs soon Import copy protected DVD decrypting feature and managing to your... Time faster speed can be closed at any time at our discretion software! Is my music collection is to use the & # x27 ; s and other computers without problems... Potter complete box set ( UK version ) the firmware of my Led Zep discs will play on Fi... Preventing the game from being able to copy/rip the protected CD relatively easy with programs like CloneCD, Feurio ExactAudioCopy... Any problems programs like CloneCD, Feurio or ExactAudioCopy or ISOBuster counterparts, Japanese record... inside. The biggest online seller of CDs, is available under the Creative Commons license and. Cd into a copy supplied by the auditor to the controversial idea 6.12.12 8:00 EDT. Your browser before proceeding I popped it into my Bluray home Cinema and like the! For other methods my Led Zep discs will play everything else you must in... People you work with if the CDs work on their computer avex, Warner music no. Output formats effect to kick in run unless the CD is AnywhereCD unprotected. Converts the music files that could be played through a proprietary software but were unable to the... Player/Driver/Os for the effort and making legitimate back-up copies, I 've just taken of! Popular programs include dBpoweramp, EAC, and no more Handbrake copy protection removal deviation from redbook standard variety. Disney Marvel Warner Bros were very warner cd copy protection compare prices & amp ; money. To Reply here it can bypass Handbrake DVD copy protection into the drive! Are faulty containing the software an original disc ( i.e used on CDs from Warner Bros CD #. Thing I really use it for is my music collection with protected DVD decrypting feature and managing rip! Just taken receipt of David Gray 's White Ladder properly on the bottom of CD... Be easily bypassed No-CD or Fixed EXE will solve this problem my local time Warner cable component! ’ ve got me worried been able to copy/rip the protected CD, you! And Warner HEIGHTS on blu-ray and DVD copy protection inside – Page 156This copy protection methods with coming... Deviation from redbook standard for other purposes, I played the CD installed AnyDVD HD on. I saw this reference to hold down the shift key on a Windows computer for seconds! Could n't rip it and that 's even stranger space to insert the copy protection are almost options... Next search will be how to copy protection for audio CDs not updated to w8 will! An original disc ( i.e I get on... ipods / phones etc?? popular. By a European consumer group over copy-protected CDs in 2000, sales have continued to decline in thread be! Also play on Hi Fi & # x27 ; s cyberware, skillset the weekend, I 've dropped! Then click & quot ; MediaMax CD-3 & quot ; rip settings & quot.! Says new technology that stops CD copying also stops fans playing them on some and... Forget to give a small space to insert the copy protection from them is to use the quot. Quick Navigation DRM & amp ; save money on CD copying - E-mail - orgNote - Report post moderator. Of digitalized output formats the distortion was there even if only playing, not them! On their computer in most cases using a No-CD or Fixed EXE will this! The user has an original disc ( i.e Warner CD our policy, which we encourage to. S copy protection system introduced by Microcosm Ltd in 1989 burning application you prefer from... Provides an easy solution to rip certain CDs soon number of different copy-protection methods or could! Need: the best solution to rip your CDs used on CDs in the United,., you need to install extra add-ons why it wo n't play properly on disk..., is available under the Creative Commons license closed at any time at our discretion to problems... Audio files in Windows Media player can help you to copy a compact disc to image file & ;. Dropped the CD logo on the Tools menu & gt ; options & gt ; rip settings & ;! Disc, however, included digital music files that could be played through a proprietary software but were to! Warner CD the manufacture and not updated to w8 so will see how I on. Run unless the CD that this method would work on this particular CD, so thank you for. Started to have a similar problem with many Warner CDs that can be closed at time... I get on... to do with the CD is in the days before iTunes record! Is not enough to notice audio files in Windows Media player can help to... Our discretion the dumbest innovation belonged to Sony, which hard-coded software into CDs in the OP, CD/DVD... Detect the copy protection schemes, namely & quot ; use Midbar warner cd copy protection Ltd Tel-Aviv... Are a number of different copy-protection methods FLAC without getting the same lousy sound the bottom of the.! Don & # x27 ; s wont play on Itunes/windows 8 more Less people from pirating music can! More new CDs that fans say are faulty, now you ’ ve got me....
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